Thoughts on Season 2 without Kate

I (still) don't understand that kind of stubbornness/fanatism(?)/inflexibility.
That's like saying: "I love the blue ice cream. I don't know the other ones, but I will NEVER try them!"
#be open minded

I guess there are good reasons why Kate have left for NOW.
But well, we discussed that already.
I still think that Kate Kane will return at the end of season 2 (recasted).

There is an easy explanation for an attitude like this. And there is nothing wrong with it.

Many people, including myself, were interested in this series because of our love for Kate Kane as a character, in the comics. Hell, that following is why this show was brought to fruition. And while the Kate Kane on the show went in a different direction, and the show featured a plethora of new characters, or characters she didn't really associate with in the books (Luke and Julia), it was still a form of Kate Kane.

But now, after a less-than-stellar first season, and the loss of Ruby Rose, the showrunners are bailing on that beloved character while her story was still in it's infancy. In it's place, they are using the "Batwoman" brand to create a story that literally has nothing to do with the Kate Kane or Batwoman we know and love from comics. All ties to the Batwoman that fans loved prior to this series are gone.

Essentially, anyone who supported the very creation of this series due to their love for the comic counterpart would be justified in feeling betrayed, and there is nothing wrong with that. Adapting the character for the screen is one thing. Kate, Ollie, Barry, and Kara have all had liberties taken with them in their transition from page-to-screen. But this takes it several steps further, abandoning the character the series was inspired by and built around, altogether.

What infuriates me to no end are the "new fans" that are hopping on the bandwagon just because the new lead is a woman of color, who call anyone who doesn't care for this change "racist". The new casting has given people the excuse to make that automatic assumption. I, and several others, weren't on board for this new direction LONG before Javicia was announced. And furthermore, these new "bandwagon" fans, who didn't care for the show, before, aren't likely to convert into a long-term fan base. Once the hype over the "brand new Batwoman" fades, the fanbase who is still around are gonna be those who care for the characters and the writing, as well as those who cared about season 1. But they shot themselves in the foot by alienating a lot of that core demographic who joined because they supported seeing Kate Kane in live action. So once the new hype fades, they'll even have lost a portion of their original fanbase.

People defend the transition saying "other people have been Batman", "Superman" or other heroes. But lets be very honest here. No matter how many people have temporarily dawned the mantle of a certain character, when we think of that character, there is always ONE person we think of.

I'll put it this way. If a Batman show was ordered to series, unless the word "Beyond" was in the title, you expect the protagonist to be Bruce Wayne. You create a Superman show, you expect the protagonist to be Clark Kent. You create a Wonder Woman movie, you expect the lead to be Diana of Themyscira. Batwoman is in that same boat. Hell, less people have worn the mantle of Batwoman than Batman, Superman, or Wonder Woman.

There is nothing wrong with those who are excited for this new direction, or for those who are remaining open minded about it. I truly hope they enjoy it.

But on the reverse, there is also nothing wrong with people checking out because, when this show was announced, their excitement was centered around a Kate Kane Batwoman show, bringing a character they had already loved to life in live action.

I share that with rogvortex58. I'm going to try and give this new season a few episodes...but I'll be honest, as someone who cared more about Kate, and less about the supporting cast...since we lost Kate, my reason to care about this show is pretty low, at this point.

I'm much more active on the Supegirl site, so I'll put it this way. If they bailed on the character of Kara Zor-El / Kara Danvers after season 1, in favor of a brand new original character...I would have dropped that show faster than I can possibly express.

And, unfortunately, not many people share your confidence that Kate Kane will return at the end of the season. I said this before, but giving the mantle to Ryan Wilder, promoting it as a new black woman-led show, then ripping that away at the end of the season, would be in REALLY poor taste, from a PC standpoint. So no matter what they do, even if they bring Kate back...they've alienated one fan base or another.

I am still living in a state of denial and hoping they do "an about face" before filming resumes, as Vancouver is still closed for tv production work...

I totally agree that the Mary-Luke dynamic cannot be lost.

I too fear without Kate, the Red Alice story will not happen. We certainly won't get the sisters reunited as Batwoman/Red Alice.

Perhaps the new character can be Latin-x, LGBTQ or nonbinary.

Again, I am in denial and hope they are playing us and the new character will be Kate's new partner and not the new Batwoman.

Here is a little info on an upcoming episode you may find of interest:

https://tvline.com/2021/01/20/batwoman-season-2-javicia-leslie-black-lives-matter

Right. Because validating some random OC imposter is so much more important than respecting the real Batwoman and her legacy.

Give me a break. ?

Shifting the story from Kate to Ryan isn't disrespectful.

I dislike the execution, but the concept is sound.

*sigh* Ya know what? I’ve changed my mind. I’m still not watching. I’m happy for Wallis Day to get the role. But seeing these writers continue to insult Kate Kane’s character by denying her the Batwoman mantle, in favour of their precious OC, is just going to be too painful to witness.

They should have just recast her right from the start. But the character was clearly too “white and privileged” to be worthy of being Batwoman anymore. Because being woke today is so much more important to them than respecting the source material.

DC’s intellectual property has always been too good for these hacks.

Ethnicity had nothing to do with the decision to shift the focus of the series from Kate to Ryan.

We know this because Wallis was actually one of the people who auditioned for the role of Ryan before it ultimately went to Javica, as per Caroline Dries.

Wallis also came onto the producers' radar for the role of the new Kate because of the fan community's push for her to replace Ruby before it was revealed that the focus of the series was being shifted away from Kate and onto Ryan.

I mean...the best case scenario, in my head, is that they have Wallis come in as a series regular/starring role, and have both Kate and Ryan be "Batwomen".

Will this happen? I'm not placing heavy bets on it.

We'll see where it goes in season 3. But while the show is already renewed, it'll be interesting to see how far it goes. I never compare CW ratings to other networks. I compare them to other DC CW shows. And right now...Batwoman is sitting well below Supergirl's ratings, and BARELY above Black Lightning's ratings. Both being shows that are ending.

"I understand Kate Kane loyalists like you that wanna see her on the show but also are open-minded enough to watch the show anyhow. That's good.
Some, however, are real fanatics....that refuse to tune in, even there are still all the other characters + a new character must not be bad news, even if you love the original."

Here's my issue with that statement...when I tune in to one of the DC shows, I tune in for the titular character. For Arrow, I tuned in for Oliver Queen. For The Flash, I tune in for Barry Allen. For Supergirl, I tune in for Kara Zor-El.

I was one of the people who was ECSTATIC that an icon like Kate Kane's Batwoman was being brought to television. The supporting cast is fine. But the main draw for me was Kate Kane's Batwoman. Everyone else, to me, is just supporting characters. And I don't want to tune in to a show that is just supporting characters.

To make a similar comparison, if they replaced Kara as Supergirl in season 2, I would have ditched the show, right then. And even this year, if they hadn't added the Phantom Zone sub plot to give us some Supergirl during these early episodes where Melissa Benoist was originally on leave, then I can honestly say I wouldn't have tuned in until the character returned for the rest of the season.

So, when they opted to get rid of Kate, in favor of an OC, it felt like they were completely ditching my reason for watching the show, and all that was left was supporting characters. Was a a big fan of Ruby's portrayal? Not particularly. But KATE is the reason Batwoman became an icon, in comics. And using her rep to start the show, and then pull the rug out from under us, just felt like a cheap bait-&-switch tactic. I particularly think they should have just recast Kate over last Summer, if they were just going to do it later, anyway. I'm actually really excited to see what Wallis brings to the role.

That said, I do NOT want the show to end. I would never disparage those who like this new direction, and like Ryan. But the numbers don't lie. Even accounting for the fact that every CW show has seen a drop from season-to-season, Batwoman's ranking among CW shows (and especially DC CW shows) has tanked. This tells me that, while this new lead and new direction has it's supporters, it's not making up the difference. Batwoman lost more viewers than it gained in this transition. The show was ranked 4th on the network, last year. It's now struggling just to stay in the top 10. No matter how much you defend this show, there is no valid rationale for a drop that steep.

This is why I think the smart idea would be to have Kate and Ryan as co-leads. You can hopefully regain the lost Kate Kane fanbase, while still maintaining the new viewers that Ryan's character has brought in. This would also allow them to bring back Kate's standing as the Paragon of Courage and the "Bat of The Future", as she was titled in Crisis, and through her, introduce Ryan to the rest of CW's heroes, once the pandemic passes and crossovers can become a thing, again.

Again, I'm not counting on this happening. I just think it would be the smart way to go, to satisfy both characters' fanbases, recover some viewership, and reinvigorate the show.

@kdogg87

I am in total agreement with much of what you stated. I was totally on board and psyched about Batwoman coming to Arrowverse and for me Batwoman meant Kate Kane, not a substitute. If I go to the movies to see Batman, I expect to see Bruce Wayne, not a random stand in. Actors can change but not the primary character of the narrative you are bringing to the screen. Why bother?

Season 1 actually exceeded my expectations in many ways, but I have struggled with season 2. I actually like the actress Javicia Leslie. I liked her on Berlanti's GFM. However, I don't think she sells the backstory of Ryan Wilder as it was pitched as a girl growing up in the foster system and the streets of Gotham. She comes across more like someone from middle class, protected from the mean streets of Gotham. Ryan is sweet with a child-like innocence about her. At least that is how she comes across to me... a little naiveté. Nothing wrong with that... but, unless she's Kryptonian, the streets of Gotham would eat her alive. I could have gotten behind the character if approached differently and I HAVE TRIED, despite some saying I haven't given her a chance. I would have liked the character more as someone Kate befriended, brought in out of her van to work in the bar and train to become part of team bat. A version of Robin to her Batwoman. I just don't see her in character as Batwoman and she is not Kate Kane, the Batwoman fans expect to see. Like Batman, Batwoman has a little darkness within that drives them. Ryan just doesn't have that mystique.

I do not think we will see Wallis as Kate in the Batsuit, unless it's in flashbacks... I am hoping for such flashbacks! I actually think Kate will be a potential threat initially but will hopefully overcome the effects of her head injury and apparent brainwashing to come. I am hoping if they do go in that direction that the Kane sisters will unite in some fun mayhem, but nothing Kate can't come back from... before the show ends I want Kate's Batwoman and Alice's Red Alice fighting side-by-side.

They have suggested Ryan was a comic book fan as a child. Perhaps younger Ryan even created or imagined an alter-ego hero of herself... one they could introduce "organically" to the story and she could eventually transition to, allowing Kate to resume the Batwoman role. I doubt this can happen, at least no time soon, but it is what I'd want to see eventually and what most fans would want to see.

I think Wallis will be an awesome recast... she was my top pick of the names that were scattered about last year. I also hope they find the right Kate/Ryan balance for the show... although that likely won't be established until season 3 at the earliest. As for its ratings decline, I can see it benched for Fall and moving to mid-season, if not summer, as CW scored with 3 freshman shows: S&L, Walker & Kung Fu. All of which should be on its Fall schedule, as they are currently the nets top 3 programs. I am curious what it's episode count for BW will be for S3.

Patience-wise, this season has taken its toll on me. I need "something" to stick around for season 3. I hope it comes soon with Wallis.

I agree with 99% you say athena69!
When they really remove Kate on a permanent basis all the family connections will crumble, and of course I don't like that.
Right now we can only speculate like hell what will happen and that makes it a pretty.....UNCOOL situation right now.
I HOPE for some infos really soon!
-
But at least I now have found out who will be playing the new Batwoman
I'm already obsessed by her!

I'm very curous about how the other characters will be played off this new Batwoman.Losing Kate will have the most impact on Alice,Jacob and Mary the most I think.Luke and Julia are Batman legacy characters so I think they will fit more easily with a new Batwoman.Not sure how well Sophia will fit.

After seeing the Natalie Sharp audition Siggi found,it feels like Kate is going to be killed off.If that happens,hoe Kate dies will be a big impact.What if Jacob is responsible for Batwoman's death?What if it's Alice?

Also since I watch all the Arrowverse shows,I really want to see how this impacts other shows.Specifically Supergirl.The relationship between Kate and Kara is something special IMO.Plus they had plans to do more with the two characters pre-COVID 19 and Melissa's maternity leave.I can't see there being a new Batwoman and something happening to Kate and Kara not having a reaction or wanting to check out what's going on.

What I hope is that even if they can't do a crossover next season due to Supergirl starting later on in filming than the other shows,that they do some type of offscreen thing on Batwoman,Supergirl or both.

Sort of like what Buffy and Angel did in season 6 and season 3.Buffy died in the season 5 finale(Angel and his team were than informed in his season 2 finale with a small crossover from Buffy character,Willow) but than the show moved to UPN while Angel was staying on The WB.As a result,The WB refused to let the regular crossovers between the two shows continue(UPN was open to it and the crossovers returned the following year).As a result they dealt with Buffy's resurrection with a offscreen crossover.Angel receives the news that Buffy is alive with a phone call and Buffy learns that Angel knows she's back and they both rush off to see eachother..The following episodes on both shows have them returning to their respective team/family and we are only told that the reunion was intense.

I would have no problem due to the real life issues of filming for the 2020/2021 season if they do something like a phone call or implication of something happening offscreen regarding Supergirl/Kara,Kate's fate and learning of the new Batwoman.

Twitter campaign for Kate Kane...

Batwoman Fans Launch "Kate Kane is Batwoman" Twitter Campaign

#SaveKateKane
#BatwomanisKateKane

Right now we can only speculate like hell what will happen and that makes it a pretty.....UNCOOL situation right now.

Well, on the one hand, yeah, it does suck that we don't know what's going on, but info will be dribbling out as they get closer to filming. On the other hand, that's what THIS post is for - so we can speculate and bounce ideas, and maybe get a laugh and point back and see who hit the mark!

But at least I now have found out who will be playing the new Batwoman

Did I miss a post?!? Who? Natalie Sharp? I'd be surprised if it was her since she already has an established character on Flash (appeared in 3 episodes this season) and still could potentially return.

@comic fan - Yeah, likewise, I hope they acknowledge Kate's death in Supergirl, somehow. Kate/Ruby and Kara/Melissa had a great chemistry together, it really sucks that we'll never get to see that friendship grow. It would be nice if they acknowledged it in all the Arrowverse shows - she was one of the Seven Paragons, after all (whoa! I just had an epiphany - seven paragons == seven samurai!) But I guess we'll have to wait until season 3 to see how they handle the World's Finest crossover. And how is this going to affect the crossover with Superman & Lois?!?

I really don't think Alice will be the one to kill Kate/Batwoman. Cuz if she did, even tho she still wants revenge against her father, I don't think Jacob is an important enough a character for Alice to hang around for - I mean, really, at this point, most of us would likely be rooting for Alice to succeed, right? As much as I think it would be in character for Alice to get Jacob to kill Batwoman, then Alice would have no reason to stay in Gotham, and she's too delicious a character for them to write her out, so likely, I think it'll be someone else. Hush, maybe?

I won't be watching, in fact I'm dumping the Arrowverse as a whole.

I might give Titans a go - after all Nightwing is Dick Grayson there, not random-insert-replacement because reasons.

There is a petition going for those interested: https://www.change.org/p/the-cw-keep-kate-kane-as-batwoman

Unless there is a change (doubtful) and they simply recast Kate, I won't be around here much anymore, if at all. I'll be sticking to the Batwoman comics forums instead, as I said I would.

Well, season 1 was fun, and Kate's time on the screen was good while it lasted. Maybe one day we'll get an animated series or something with Kate Kane as Batwoman, but until then. Cheers.

^ I really enjoyed the dicissions with you here... Bratty_bat
I can understand when someone is really unhappy about Kate being replaced....right now, I'm not happy about it too.
But you don't know (as the rest of us) at all how the show will go on, which storyline is behind all that.
So I think you shouldn't just quit the show and the whole Arrowverse.
To me that sounds like a big overreaction as if the producers offended you personally.
Even if your are not happy with Kate being gone....have some faith in them and watch at least the first episode of the season 2.
It also would be a real shame if you wouldn't be on the forum anymore, since you are one of the most active here.

Why should I give season 2 a chance if they won't give a recast a chance. I watch shows for enjoyment and escapism, not to see one of my favourite characters in fiction replaced with a random insert.

There are so many shows out there to watch, I have no need to waste my time on Imposter-Batwoman.

If they wanted to make their own original character they should make their own original hero name for that character, but they are using an existing brand name as a shortcut.

^ The name Ryan Wilder is not official yet, it can be a place holder for variety of bat family members.
The "big picture" behind all of this is totally unknown for us right now. As long as Kate Kane isn't killed she can return to the show. Or, at least a version of her from another earth! That wouldn't be a total surprise as well. Seemingly there isn't only earth prime left after the crossover.

IMO don't care about the placeholder name. I'm not excited about another member of the Batfamily using her mantle either (the writer said in the official statement that it's an OC anyway), they have their own, they should use their own.

When an adaption of a novel or comic series you love is disrespectful to the source material to the point that you cannot enjoy it, you do not watch or support it. What would be the point.

^ I really enjoyed the dicissions with you here... Bratty_bat
I can understand when someone is really unhappy about Kate being replaced....right now, I'm not happy about it too.
But you don't know (as the rest of us) at all how the show will go on, which storyline is behind all that.
So I think you shouldn't just quit the show and the whole Arrowverse.
To me that sounds like a big overreaction as if the producers offended you personally.
Even if your are not happy with Kate being gone....have some faith in them and watch at least the first episode of the season 2.
It also would be a real shame if you wouldn't be on the forum anymore, since you are one of the most active here.

It's not an overreaction to stop watching some TV shows if they aren't enjoyable, it's just how TV goes. And since this is a forum about the TV show, and I'd only really be around to discuss the comics. It would be redundant to stick around after I'm done with discussing season 1, and my disgust at the planned changes for season 2.

As a kid I loved season 1 of Dark Angel, my friends and I discussed it at school after every episode.
Season 2 had a complete tonal change and we hated it, we stopped discussing it, I hate-watched it once through and never again (shouldn't have it was awful and I know better now). I never bought it for my dvd collection like I did with season 1. For me the show ended after 1 season - seems Batwoman may go the same way.

Sorry to see you go, @Bratty_Bat, but I do understand your reasons.

Like most everyone else, I hate that they are replacing Kate vice recasting. Kate Kane represents Gay Pride in my mind, and it sucks that we're loosing that. We all watch TV for escapism, and for me, altho the plot holes drive me insane, one of the things I really love about the show is that it's character-driven. Granted we're loosing the best character dynamics of the show between Kate and Alice, but I have faith that Caroline and team will come up with something that I will enjoy. But I won't know unless I watch.

Maybe, because I've never read the comics, I'm not as rooted in the concept of Kate Kane as Batwoman. Just to play devil's advocate here, this does open up their options because they don't have to follow the Kate Kane story lines. And frankly, based on what I've read about those stories, it sounded more like a soap opera, like the (male) writers maybe didn't quite know how to write for a lesbian lead.

At any rate, I'm going to think of season 2 as a kind of reboot, and give it a chance.

Perhaps, if we think of Batwoman as the Dread Pirate Roberts?

Updated...A couple or 3 interesting articles:

https://www.cbr.com/batwoman-kill-off-ruby-rose-kate-kane

https://www.cbr.com/batwoman-riverdale-vanessa-morgan-ruby-rose-replacement

https://www.tvinsider.com/gallery/new-batwoman-season-2-changes-without-kate-kane

#SaveKateKane
#BatwomanisKateKane

I have faith that Caroline and team will come up with something that I will enjoy. But I won't know unless I watch.

Maybe, because I've never read the comics, I'm not as rooted in the concept of Kate Kane as Batwoman. Just to play devil's advocate here, this does open up their options because they don't [i]have to follow the Kate Kane story lines. And frankly, based on what I've read about those stories, it sounded more like a soap opera, like the (male) writers maybe didn't quite know how to write for a lesbian lead.[/i]

They want their own original character, good for them, as long as they go and make their own original mantle and supporting characters for said hero - not steal Kate's for the branding and then take a huge-steamy-dump all over a much loved character in order to do it.

I just made a new page about season 2 on my Blog:
https://maskripper.org/new-batwoman-page-season-2-preview

On that page I wanna present the known facts, some of the rumors and my expectations towards season 2.
By the way: Just 214 days to go!