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  1. athena69
  2. Batwoman.tv General
  3. Sunday, 07 June 2020
Now that we have official confirmtion that they are indeed writing Kate Kane out of the show and bringing in a completely new character to take on the mantle of Batwoman, I have a few thoughts on the change in character dynamics.

On the one hand, I appreciate that they are honoring Ruby's legacy by not recasting the character of Kate. And since Ruby left on apparently good terms, I hope they leave the story open for Kate to make a appearance or three in the future, and not just kill her off. I just hope they come up with a really good reason for Kate leaving and not something lame like, she couldn't handle that her father hates Batwoman - not something the Paragon of Courage would throw in the towel for.

With Kate out of the picture, I kind of see it less likely that Alice will become Red Alice - without the impetus of working along side her twin sister, does she have enough of a moral compass to make that transition on her own? Maybe if Kate disappears before she has her chance to exact her revenge, she'll go after whoever she thinks is responsible, and inadvertently become a hero? And it seems to me that Alice never considered Batwoman a threat. But with someone other than her sister wearing the batsuit, I can see the Batwoman/Alice dynamic becoming much more antagonistic this next season. Without Mouse, Alice is now completely on her own. And if she can't have her revenge on Kate (and no Kate to help draw out the good in her), I think she's going to become a lot more dangerous.

And then there's Safiyah. She's been gunning for Batwoman. And she's pissed at Alice for betraying her. So, the enemy of my enemy is my Bat-friend? Maybe Alice will have to team up with the new Batwoman to stop Safiyah?

What about the rest of the Bat-team? I don't see Luke being written out - he's the one with all the Bat-tech secrets. Altho, I do see his becoming Batwing happening sooner than later as a result of this change. Perhaps this will open it up to bring Parker in full time to take over Luke's duties in the bat-cave?

And since we absolutely cannot loose the Mary-Luke dynamic (which I think will become even more fun once Luke becomes Batwing), I think Mary will put herself in the role of big sister to "Ryan" and try to smooth out some of the rough edges that they've hinted at in the character description.

Jacob, of course, will continue down his dark obsession to kill Batwoman, and it's going to get him in trouble at some point. I can almost see him going rogue and bordering on becoming a villain. But I also see that without Kate, I think he'll be more of a thorn in the Bat-team's side and we'll see less of him in general.

It seems to me that Sophie's main purpose on the show was to create some sexual and emotional tension for Kate. With Kate gone, I don't know... maybe she'll be the only thing that keeps Jacob from completely dragging the Crows down the road to police state?

Julia is Alfred's daughter, so she'll always have a place in the Bat-family, and personally, I think she needs to be on the team permanently. But I have a feeling that she'll be an on-again-off-again character. Given her happy-go-lucky attitude, I think she'll get along great with "Ryan".

So, them's my thoughts. Anyone else?
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@Siggi

..... Speaking of, did we get a confirmation of the episode order for season 2 on Batwoman? You said 18, but I can't find a source. If you have a source, I'd greatly appreciate it! The only source I've found is a Deadline article about Supergirl, saying it's 20 episode final season will be longer than the other scripted shows.

......


I have a very official source on the show, won't say more.... ;)
It's not official yet. Until mid-December, they had the first 9 episodes filmed. So I guess they are filming now for another 3 months for the other 9 episodes. Will be interesting to know when season 3 is coming if they only make a short filming break to get to the normal routine back with a season start in October or so.
And yeah, the comparison with other CW superhero shows will be interesting, yeah, it should stay above LoT and Black Lightning for example.
And I bet for a solid growth on the ratings of episode 3 with football "out of the way". Would be good if the 18-49 demo would reach 0.2 again and total viewership would go up to 0.75 or so. Last season we got the renewal notice between the crisis crossover episodes.
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@Siggi

Everything you said is true. That's why I said I'm waiting for the other DC shows to premiere, so comparisons can be made. While we can't use live ratings to determine a show's overall success, we can use them to get a general idea of how a show is performing compared to it's other CW counterparts.

For example, if Batwoman's numbers are hovering around the same place as Black Lightning's, a show that's already ending, then that's probably not a good sign.

I won't compare it to Supergirl, this season, because Batwoman will likely be close to it's conclusion by the time Supergirl even starts. Speaking of, did we get a confirmation of the episode order for season 2 on Batwoman? You said 18, but I can't find a source. If you have a source, I'd greatly appreciate it! The only source I've found is a Deadline article about Supergirl, saying it's 20 episode final season will be longer than the other scripted shows.

However, I am going to say that, with how HARD they've been promoting Batwoman season 2, it's still a red flag that it's first 2 episodes are struggling to match even the lower ratings for season 1.

As for the facebook groups you mentioned...of course they favor the show. A group that is dedicated to a show is never going to be an accurate sample group. I belong to multiple Supergirl groups. Those groups are constantly singing the show's praises, and rarely criticizing it. And while I support that show, I know it's far, FAR from perfect, especially these last couple years.

I know you're the eternal optimist regarding this show. You have been the most sure about it of anyone I've seen on this board, even since the recasting plan was announced last Spring. And as I said in my previous post, this show is not guaranteed for renewal or cancellation. We just don't know. But I DO think it's safe to say that, with this rebooted season 2 with a brand new lead, the show is definitely under a microscope, and those who make decisions are going to be watching closely at how it's performing.

I've said this before, but I truly hope you're theory is right, and that Kate returns (with a new actress) and the possible season 3 is a co-led show with both characters. I truly believe that is the best route for this show. That would satisfy me, and others who desire Kate Kane to be Batwoman, without alienating any of the new viewers. I'm just not sure that's the route that the showrunners are heading with this. If they were going to recast Kate, why go through this disappearance arc, instead of just recasting last Summer? It does them no favors.
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@rogvortex:
Ok, now I'm getting slightly annoyed. Where have you been throughout season 1? One or two posts in the whole season. And now you are posting very often how you dislike things and take every chance at attacking the show. This is a fan-site for the TV show.... and by the way: Have you even seen the first two episodes? But I guess that wouldn't do much good as you seemingly dislike Ryan just for the fact that she isn't Kate.
And comparing the ratings without any context to season 1...like many trolls do (doesn't say you are a troll)....doesn't help.
First of all, what I read in some places: They compared the (18-49) ratings with the first episode from this season with the ratings from the first episode of the entire show.
That makes NO sense at all! Of course, the very first episode has a whole lot of curious watchers who wanna see it. Also, the final ratings for the 18-49 demo went up 50% from 0,1 to 0,15 (final results are only in 2 days after an episode). Of course, the trolls ignore that. As much as the trolls compared every single rating in season 1 with the very first episode and drolled over how "low" it dropped from episode 1. Complete nonsense as well. Actually many think that the very first episode was the weakest....
If you then compare these results to last season's average or the last episodes of s1...then the drop is much lower.
The overall viewership was actually pretty much the SAME as in the last 7 episodes of season 1.
AND, very importantly: There were the NFL playoffs on the Sundays of the first two episodes. 99% of the folks who are interested in both will watch NFL live and record Batwoman or stream it the next day.
The TV ratings go down from year to year.
More and more people are streaming and especially in the 18-49 demo, many young folks stream practically everything, they don't watch it on (live) TV.
Look at Arrows or Flash ratings, or practically every TV show...the TV ratings are going down from year to year. Which doesn't mean all these shows are getting worse or less audience in total (as the numbers exclude streaming numbers, dvd sales).
Also, with all the streaming services and their own shows...again...there are more and more TV shows every year. People can watch only a certain amount...so the average numbers go down even more.
Also, the CW cares much less about these TV ratings than other stations. There are heavily relying on their own streaming service. On social media, they are advertising it every chance they get in their Batwoman posts. They don't promote their own TV airing much in comparison....that says quite a lot!
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@kdogg87:
So far, with all I said above, we can't know at all how the people are thinking about Ryan as the new Batwoman, as there are SO many factors. The reception in the 2 big Batwoman Facebook groups of Ryan is very well, even I guess some hardcore Kate Kane fanatics may have left already.
What do you mean by "shorter" season? Ok, well 18 episodes is a little less than usual (22 or so) but still quite a lot in comparison to most shows.
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The 18-49 demo already increased from episode 1 to 2 which is pretty great as normally a season premiere episode should attract more viewers...
And with no NFL this weekend, I bet the TV ratings are improving even more.
But again, that's ONLY the live TV ratings.
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If the ratings for S2 prove anything, it’s that replacing Kate Kane with some random OC, who has no connection to the DC universe or the show’s cast, was a mistake.

Maybe they can fix it midway through the season, recast the role, bring Kate back and give the Batwoman mantle back to her.

It would be the smart thing to do before the show gets cancelled.


I'm was waiting for the other DC shows to premiere so I could get a handle on how it's ranking among THOSE shows. But yes. The premiere had the weakest ratings in the show's history, and episode 2 had the third weakest.

For comparison, the ratings for the first two episodes of Batwoman season 2 are below the last year's average numbers for both Black Lightning and Supergirl...two shows that are now ending.

Granted, the CW has some really funky factors for what determines if a show is cancelled or renewed, so the show's fate is far from sealed. As we know, live viewership isn't a huge factor for their decisions. But it DOES give us a feeling for how a show's viewership ranks among other CW shows.

I do feel it's fair to say, at this point, that ditching Kate for an O.C. alienated a fair amount of viewers who supported the show, last year. And it seems the viewers they aimed to gain by going this new direction did not outweigh those losses.

And due to the shorter season, they don't have as much time to course-correct as they maybe normally would. At the same time, though, the show could be saved simply by the fact that they need shows for the Fall 2021 line up, for which they already need to start making decisions soon.

I'm genuinely intrigued by the questions regarding the fate of this show. It could honestly go either way.
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If the ratings for S2 prove anything, it’s that replacing Kate Kane with some random OC, who has no connection to the DC universe or the show’s cast, was a mistake.

Maybe they can fix it midway through the season, recast the role, bring Kate back and give the Batwoman mantle back to her.

It would be the smart thing to do before the show gets cancelled.
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I'm still waiting for one or two more episodes to air before I binge the first few all at once.

That said, I feel like all of this "Kate is alive" teasing (which Caroline Dries has been doing since before the recast) is a bad move, unless they intend to bring her back.

But as I've mentioned before, bringing her back at some point, even with a recast, is also a dangerous path, because you pull focus from Ryan, and all the promotion of her being a Batwoman of color that they've been doing leading up to and throughout this season.

I'm curious to see how they are gonna resolve this Kate mystery. How they resolve this, and move forward afterward, will really determine the direction of the show, post-season 2. That's what I WANT, but I doubt it's what they will do.

In my mind, the best path is to bring back a recasted Kate, at season's end, and make her and Ryan a team of Batwomen for the future. I was gonna say bring Kate back as Batwoman and give Ryan another identity after this season...but even that would be viewed as a "demotion" and wouldn't play well.

If they bring Kate's character back at the end of the season, after the mystery is solved, only to write her off, again, after a season of build up, I feel like that would be really disappointing.

That said, I am genuinely intrigued at how they are going to try to resolve this plot thread.
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Still not happy they erased Kate.

........


They didn't erase her as she is not dead.
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  2. Batwoman.tv General
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Still not happy they erased Kate. Even more angry that Dries called her “a privileged white girl” when we know she is so much more than that.

Definitely not watching now. Dries crossed a line when she said that. After everything Kate has meant to her fans for years. The fact that this show wouldn’t even exist without her. The is how the showrunner chooses to respect the character and her legacy?

Kate Kane deserved so much better than this. And so did her fans.

I’m just done.
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Here is a little info on an upcoming episode you may find of interest:

https://tvline.com/2021/01/20/batwoman-season-2-javicia-leslie-black-lives-matter
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  2. Batwoman.tv General
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Caroline Dries post episode interview with TV Line.Spoilers for the now aired premiere.

https://tvline.com/2021/01/17/batwoman-recap-season-2-premiere-javicia-leslie-kate-ryan/
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Kate Kane is Batwoman and this switcheroo doesn't make me happy... as I have said many times.

The time has arrived. We are 20 minutes in the S2 premiere. No spoilers, but I think Dries did a fine job with the hand off.

It plays well. I'm still not happy, but it plays well.

Nothing against the new actress, as I really like her... just a Kate Kane fan.
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I still have no desire to watch Season 2 at the present time, but it appears from trailers and such the production team have found a way to make their decisions work.

To be clear, that doesn't mean their decisions were correct, but "Batwoman without Kate Kane" might not be the trainwreck I was convinced that it was going to be even though I'm not currently interested in it personally.

To anyone who is, though, more power to you.


Well, then I hope you get curious enough to give it soon a chance and watch it.
Personally I'm still unsure what to think about the decision to bench Kate for the moment, but I'm way too much of a fan of the show itself then to let that even me slightly considering not to watch the show.
I will watch the show until the last second of its last season, no matter what.
Yes, they take a BIG risk by swapping the main character (for now), but a risk is always a chance as well. That decision CAN make the show better than it was last season. And personally I think that Ryan background is verrry interesting.
Bruce and Kate are both rich folks and Ryan is SO different from them.
Let's see how this play out.
I'm already pretty sure that Javicia does a better job then Ruby did.
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I still have no desire to watch Season 2 at the present time, but it appears from trailers and such the production team have found a way to make their decisions work.

To be clear, that doesn't mean their decisions were correct, but "Batwoman without Kate Kane" might not be the trainwreck I was convinced that it was going to be even though I'm not currently interested in it personally.

To anyone who is, though, more power to you.
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..........
And, unfortunately, not many people share your confidence that Kate Kane will return at the end of the season. I said this before, but giving the mantle to Ryan Wilder, promoting it as a new black woman-led show, then ripping that away at the end of the season, would be in REALLY poor taste, from a PC standpoint. So no matter what they do, even if they bring Kate back...they've alienated one fan base or another.


Yeah, some good points.
I would rather have had Kate Kane still in the show either. At least at the moment, as I don't know how Javicia will be as Ryan Wilder. But I am open to the change and will watch the show no matter what happens as I'm a huge fan of the show itself.
And regarding bringing back Kate.... Well, Kate and Ryan could then work together as a team. That would be my favorite option to unite the new fans with these old fans who are the hardcore Kate Kane fans. That would also be a nice signal.....
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I (still) don't understand that kind of stubbornness/fanatism(?)/inflexibility.
That's like saying: "I love the blue ice cream. I don't know the other ones, but I will NEVER try them!"
#be open minded

I guess there are good reasons why Kate have left for NOW.
But well, we discussed that already.
I still think that Kate Kane will return at the end of season 2 (recasted).


There is an easy explanation for an attitude like this. And there is nothing wrong with it.

Many people, including myself, were interested in this series because of our love for Kate Kane as a character, in the comics. Hell, that following is why this show was brought to fruition. And while the Kate Kane on the show went in a different direction, and the show featured a plethora of new characters, or characters she didn't really associate with in the books (Luke and Julia), it was still a form of Kate Kane.

But now, after a less-than-stellar first season, and the loss of Ruby Rose, the showrunners are bailing on that beloved character while her story was still in it's infancy. In it's place, they are using the "Batwoman" brand to create a story that literally has nothing to do with the Kate Kane or Batwoman we know and love from comics. All ties to the Batwoman that fans loved prior to this series are gone.

Essentially, anyone who supported the very creation of this series due to their love for the comic counterpart would be justified in feeling betrayed, and there is nothing wrong with that. Adapting the character for the screen is one thing. Kate, Ollie, Barry, and Kara have all had liberties taken with them in their transition from page-to-screen. But this takes it several steps further, abandoning the character the series was inspired by and built around, altogether.

What infuriates me to no end are the "new fans" that are hopping on the bandwagon just because the new lead is a woman of color, who call anyone who doesn't care for this change "racist". The new casting has given people the excuse to make that automatic assumption. I, and several others, weren't on board for this new direction LONG before Javicia was announced. And furthermore, these new "bandwagon" fans, who didn't care for the show, before, aren't likely to convert into a long-term fan base. Once the hype over the "brand new Batwoman" fades, the fanbase who is still around are gonna be those who care for the characters and the writing, as well as those who cared about season 1. But they shot themselves in the foot by alienating a lot of that core demographic who joined because they supported seeing Kate Kane in live action. So once the new hype fades, they'll even have lost a portion of their original fanbase.

People defend the transition saying "other people have been Batman", "Superman" or other heroes. But lets be very honest here. No matter how many people have temporarily dawned the mantle of a certain character, when we think of that character, there is always ONE person we think of.

I'll put it this way. If a Batman show was ordered to series, unless the word "Beyond" was in the title, you expect the protagonist to be Bruce Wayne. You create a Superman show, you expect the protagonist to be Clark Kent. You create a Wonder Woman movie, you expect the lead to be Diana of Themyscira. Batwoman is in that same boat. Hell, less people have worn the mantle of Batwoman than Batman, Superman, or Wonder Woman.

There is nothing wrong with those who are excited for this new direction, or for those who are remaining open minded about it. I truly hope they enjoy it.

But on the reverse, there is also nothing wrong with people checking out because, when this show was announced, their excitement was centered around a Kate Kane Batwoman show, bringing a character they had already loved to life in live action.

I share that with rogvortex58. I'm going to try and give this new season a few episodes...but I'll be honest, as someone who cared more about Kate, and less about the supporting cast...since we lost Kate, my reason to care about this show is pretty low, at this point.

I'm much more active on the Supegirl site, so I'll put it this way. If they bailed on the character of Kara Zor-El / Kara Danvers after season 1, in favor of a brand new original character...I would have dropped that show faster than I can possibly express.

And, unfortunately, not many people share your confidence that Kate Kane will return at the end of the season. I said this before, but giving the mantle to Ryan Wilder, promoting it as a new black woman-led show, then ripping that away at the end of the season, would be in REALLY poor taste, from a PC standpoint. So no matter what they do, even if they bring Kate back...they've alienated one fan base or another.
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Not watching. Simple as that. This is not the show I signed up for.

They could have just recast her and continued with the stories I invested months in. But they had to disgrace Kate Kane’s legacy by replacing her with some random OC.

Nothing against the actress. I’m just not interested.

#KateKaneIsBatwoman


I (still) don't understand that kind of stubbornness/fanatism(?)/inflexibility.
That's like saying: "I love the blue ice cream. I don't know the other ones, but I will NEVER try them!"
#be open minded

I guess there are good reasons why Kate have left for NOW.
But well, we discussed that already.
I still think that Kate Kane will return at the end of season 2 (recasted).
http://www.maskripper.org
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Not watching. Simple as that. This is not the show I signed up for.

They could have just recast her and continued with the stories I invested months in. But they had to disgrace Kate Kane’s legacy by replacing her with some random OC.

Nothing against the actress. I’m just not interested.

#KateKaneIsBatwoman
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https://tvline.com/2020/09/10/batwoman-shivaani-ghai-season-2-safiyah/

Batwoman Casts Dominion Alum as Alice's Nemesis, Safiyah

By Michael Ausiello / September 10 2020

https://tvline.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Batwoman.jpg

When it comes to the oft-mentioned Safiyah, Batwoman is finally putting a face to the name.

Dominion actress Shivani Ghai has been tapped to join the CW drama’s Season 2 cast in the pivotal recurring role, TVLine has learned. The character — who was referred to on multiple occasions in Season 1 — is the “fiercely protective ruler of a small community on the island of Coryana,” per the official character description. “A woman with as many enemies as aliases, she is compassionate and charismatic with both physical and psychological prowess. She is beloved by her people and will stop at nothing to protect what’s hers. No one goes unnoticed by Safiyah, specifically when it comes to those who have encountered the Desert Rose.”

https://tvline.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/BW_Safiyah-1.jpg

In comic book lore, Safiyah had a history with Kate Kane (played by former leading lady Ruby Rose), but the Arrowverse drama flipped the story and tied her to Alice instead.

Regarding the decision to delay the character’s introduction until Season 2, Batwoman showrunner Caroline Dries previously explained to TVLine, “I didn’t want to bring her on in Season 1, because I think she would have gotten lost with Hush and all the cool stuff we were doing with Batwoman coming into her own, and obviously Batwoman and Alice. So we just hinted at her. But now that we’ve established her as a person that Alice is terrified of, I’m excited to bring her in as the Big Bad, at least from Alice’s point of view, because she’s the one person, we’ll find out, knows how Alice’s mind works, and is able to manipulate her.”

Batwoman is slated to kick of Season 2 (with new headliner Javicia Leslie) in early 2021
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It is exciting to here production resumed and we will hopefully get more insight of what is to come. I hope small screen Batwoman has better luck than the Big Screen Batman, which shutdown production reportedly due to Robert Pattison testing positive for Covid-19.
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