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  2. Batwoman.tv General
  3. Sunday, 07 June 2020
Now that we have official confirmtion that they are indeed writing Kate Kane out of the show and bringing in a completely new character to take on the mantle of Batwoman, I have a few thoughts on the change in character dynamics.

On the one hand, I appreciate that they are honoring Ruby's legacy by not recasting the character of Kate. And since Ruby left on apparently good terms, I hope they leave the story open for Kate to make a appearance or three in the future, and not just kill her off. I just hope they come up with a really good reason for Kate leaving and not something lame like, she couldn't handle that her father hates Batwoman - not something the Paragon of Courage would throw in the towel for.

With Kate out of the picture, I kind of see it less likely that Alice will become Red Alice - without the impetus of working along side her twin sister, does she have enough of a moral compass to make that transition on her own? Maybe if Kate disappears before she has her chance to exact her revenge, she'll go after whoever she thinks is responsible, and inadvertently become a hero? And it seems to me that Alice never considered Batwoman a threat. But with someone other than her sister wearing the batsuit, I can see the Batwoman/Alice dynamic becoming much more antagonistic this next season. Without Mouse, Alice is now completely on her own. And if she can't have her revenge on Kate (and no Kate to help draw out the good in her), I think she's going to become a lot more dangerous.

And then there's Safiyah. She's been gunning for Batwoman. And she's pissed at Alice for betraying her. So, the enemy of my enemy is my Bat-friend? Maybe Alice will have to team up with the new Batwoman to stop Safiyah?

What about the rest of the Bat-team? I don't see Luke being written out - he's the one with all the Bat-tech secrets. Altho, I do see his becoming Batwing happening sooner than later as a result of this change. Perhaps this will open it up to bring Parker in full time to take over Luke's duties in the bat-cave?

And since we absolutely cannot loose the Mary-Luke dynamic (which I think will become even more fun once Luke becomes Batwing), I think Mary will put herself in the role of big sister to "Ryan" and try to smooth out some of the rough edges that they've hinted at in the character description.

Jacob, of course, will continue down his dark obsession to kill Batwoman, and it's going to get him in trouble at some point. I can almost see him going rogue and bordering on becoming a villain. But I also see that without Kate, I think he'll be more of a thorn in the Bat-team's side and we'll see less of him in general.

It seems to me that Sophie's main purpose on the show was to create some sexual and emotional tension for Kate. With Kate gone, I don't know... maybe she'll be the only thing that keeps Jacob from completely dragging the Crows down the road to police state?

Julia is Alfred's daughter, so she'll always have a place in the Bat-family, and personally, I think she needs to be on the team permanently. But I have a feeling that she'll be an on-again-off-again character. Given her happy-go-lucky attitude, I think she'll get along great with "Ryan".

So, them's my thoughts. Anyone else?
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@kdogg87 & @CatPat

The CW is committed to diversity, which is a GOOD thing, but for better or worse, diversity clearly trumps comicbook canon in the case of who suits up as Batwoman. Caroline Dries has made it clear that Ryan is the new Batwoman, despite Kate's return. As much as some of us may question, dislike, disagree, or flat out vehemently oppose this idea, I doubt she's going to change her mind. So, alas, I very much doubt Kate will ever wear the batsuit again, at least not in this Arrowverse. :(

Ryan's character as portrayed does not at all match up to the description that Caroline put out there! She does not have the presence to carry the lead, and she's not convincing as a superhero. She fits better as a support character of an ensemble cast - second string, occasional focus, not on every episode. In fact, I think her character would fit in better on Flash or Riverdale than Batwoman. I don't dislike Ryan, but she is towards the bottom of the list of characters I want to see more of.

I was ready to give up on the show after ep#207. I love Alice, but, yeah, it's hard watching a show where you don't groove with the lead. Waiting for Wallis is really the only thing keeping me watching right now. I think between Ruby leaving and the writer's having to scrap the stories they'd planned and redo everything, and the pandemic, the first half of the season suffered greatly. The last four episodes seem to be a little better - maybe the writers are getting their groove back? Or maybe now that they're over the (forced) Ryan-origin-story, they can move on?

I do very much like the character of Kate Kane, even identify with her in some respects, and admire her for her courage. As long as she's in the show, and continues to carry that mantle of Paragon of Courage, and is suiting up and kicking ass (even if it's not as Batwoman, alas), and Wallis does her justice (and I have every confidence that she will), I'm gonna stick with the show. But, honestly, if Kate doesn't stay, I very much doubt I will either. Not as long as Ryan is the lead.
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@kdogg87

I am in total agreement with much of what you stated. I was totally on board and psyched about Batwoman coming to Arrowverse and for me Batwoman meant Kate Kane, not a substitute. If I go to the movies to see Batman, I expect to see Bruce Wayne, not a random stand in. Actors can change but not the primary character of the narrative you are bringing to the screen. Why bother?

Season 1 actually exceeded my expectations in many ways, but I have struggled with season 2. I actually like the actress Javicia Leslie. I liked her on Berlanti's GFM. However, I don't think she sells the backstory of Ryan Wilder as it was pitched as a girl growing up in the foster system and the streets of Gotham. She comes across more like someone from middle class, protected from the mean streets of Gotham. Ryan is sweet with a child-like innocence about her. At least that is how she comes across to me... a little naiveté. Nothing wrong with that... but, unless she's Kryptonian, the streets of Gotham would eat her alive. I could have gotten behind the character if approached differently and I HAVE TRIED, despite some saying I haven't given her a chance. I would have liked the character more as someone Kate befriended, brought in out of her van to work in the bar and train to become part of team bat. A version of Robin to her Batwoman. I just don't see her in character as Batwoman and she is not Kate Kane, the Batwoman fans expect to see. Like Batman, Batwoman has a little darkness within that drives them. Ryan just doesn't have that mystique.

I do not think we will see Wallis as Kate in the Batsuit, unless it's in flashbacks... I am hoping for such flashbacks! I actually think Kate will be a potential threat initially but will hopefully overcome the effects of her head injury and apparent brainwashing to come. I am hoping if they do go in that direction that the Kane sisters will unite in some fun mayhem, but nothing Kate can't come back from... before the show ends I want Kate's Batwoman and Alice's Red Alice fighting side-by-side.

They have suggested Ryan was a comic book fan as a child. Perhaps younger Ryan even created or imagined an alter-ego hero of herself... one they could introduce "organically" to the story and she could eventually transition to, allowing Kate to resume the Batwoman role. I doubt this can happen, at least no time soon, but it is what I'd want to see eventually and what most fans would want to see.

I think Wallis will be an awesome recast... she was my top pick of the names that were scattered about last year. I also hope they find the right Kate/Ryan balance for the show... although that likely won't be established until season 3 at the earliest. As for its ratings decline, I can see it benched for Fall and moving to mid-season, if not summer, as CW scored with 3 freshman shows: S&L, Walker & Kung Fu. All of which should be on its Fall schedule, as they are currently the nets top 3 programs. I am curious what it's episode count for BW will be for S3.

Patience-wise, this season has taken its toll on me. I need "something" to stick around for season 3. I hope it comes soon with Wallis.
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I mean...the best case scenario, in my head, is that they have Wallis come in as a series regular/starring role, and have both Kate and Ryan be "Batwomen".

Will this happen? I'm not placing heavy bets on it.

We'll see where it goes in season 3. But while the show is already renewed, it'll be interesting to see how far it goes. I never compare CW ratings to other networks. I compare them to other DC CW shows. And right now...Batwoman is sitting well below Supergirl's ratings, and BARELY above Black Lightning's ratings. Both being shows that are ending.

"I understand Kate Kane loyalists like you that wanna see her on the show but also are open-minded enough to watch the show anyhow. That's good.
Some, however, are real fanatics....that refuse to tune in, even there are still all the other characters + a new character must not be bad news, even if you love the original."

Here's my issue with that statement...when I tune in to one of the DC shows, I tune in for the titular character. For Arrow, I tuned in for Oliver Queen. For The Flash, I tune in for Barry Allen. For Supergirl, I tune in for Kara Zor-El.

I was one of the people who was ECSTATIC that an icon like Kate Kane's Batwoman was being brought to television. The supporting cast is fine. But the main draw for me was Kate Kane's Batwoman. Everyone else, to me, is just supporting characters. And I don't want to tune in to a show that is just supporting characters.

To make a similar comparison, if they replaced Kara as Supergirl in season 2, I would have ditched the show, right then. And even this year, if they hadn't added the Phantom Zone sub plot to give us some Supergirl during these early episodes where Melissa Benoist was originally on leave, then I can honestly say I wouldn't have tuned in until the character returned for the rest of the season.

So, when they opted to get rid of Kate, in favor of an OC, it felt like they were completely ditching my reason for watching the show, and all that was left was supporting characters. Was a a big fan of Ruby's portrayal? Not particularly. But KATE is the reason Batwoman became an icon, in comics. And using her rep to start the show, and then pull the rug out from under us, just felt like a cheap bait-&-switch tactic. I particularly think they should have just recast Kate over last Summer, if they were just going to do it later, anyway. I'm actually really excited to see what Wallis brings to the role.

That said, I do NOT want the show to end. I would never disparage those who like this new direction, and like Ryan. But the numbers don't lie. Even accounting for the fact that every CW show has seen a drop from season-to-season, Batwoman's ranking among CW shows (and especially DC CW shows) has tanked. This tells me that, while this new lead and new direction has it's supporters, it's not making up the difference. Batwoman lost more viewers than it gained in this transition. The show was ranked 4th on the network, last year. It's now struggling just to stay in the top 10. No matter how much you defend this show, there is no valid rationale for a drop that steep.

This is why I think the smart idea would be to have Kate and Ryan as co-leads. You can hopefully regain the lost Kate Kane fanbase, while still maintaining the new viewers that Ryan's character has brought in. This would also allow them to bring back Kate's standing as the Paragon of Courage and the "Bat of The Future", as she was titled in Crisis, and through her, introduce Ryan to the rest of CW's heroes, once the pandemic passes and crossovers can become a thing, again.

Again, I'm not counting on this happening. I just think it would be the smart way to go, to satisfy both characters' fanbases, recover some viewership, and reinvigorate the show.
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It appears the Subject Line here has changed, as season 2 will have Kate Kane. I think this will please most Batwoman fans.

I suspect KK fans, more than not, will accept Wallis as Kate. There will be detractors. But, this will be an "altered" Kate, suffering from head trauma and, it appears, manipulated by Enigma and Black Mask. I also suspect we have not seen the last of Safiyah. When she discovers Kate is alive, she could very well seize on the opportunity to use Kate, as well as Ocean, against Alice. This story line will play out through the remainder of this season. I see another ratings drop coming when the show moves to its new time slot, but perhaps some Legends fans not currently watching will stick around and some Kate Kane fans return...
Hopefully, the plan us to keep Wallis/Kate for season 3. Once Kate is rescued, assuming she is rescued, Kate may very well be suffering from PTSD and the effects of brainwashing, requiring counseling/therapy to bring her back. It could be a powerful plot device if they go they route and get Wallis something to sink her teeth into and easily incorporate her friends and family. I can even envision a heart-to-heart between Kate and Ryan. Ryan possibly offering to step back from the Batsuit and Kate telling her that with what she's been through, she trusts Ryan more with the Batsuit than herself. I do eventually want Kate back as Batwoman and I still think Ryan needs her own superhero identity. It may not work out this way, but it is possible to keep Kate Kane as a driving force within Batwoman, even if Ryan is in the suit.
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A what if "Wallis could like as Batwoman" picture that I found elsewhere online... I don't see that happening this season, if ever, but here it is...


Yeah, that picture among others surfaced last year in May already as her name was mentioned quite often.
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Regarding the ratings and loyal Kate Kane fans:
Will be interesting to see how the ratings will react to the Wallis Day casting. She has quite a fellowship on social media and I expect many of those fans to start watching the show.
Also, some of the Kate Kane loyalists might now tune in as she is back on screen. Even she is now "changed"....

I understand Kate Kane loyalists like you that wanna see her on the show but also are open-minded enough to watch the show anyhow. That's good.
Some, however, are real fanatics....that refuse to tune in, even there are still all the other characters + a new character must not be bad news, even if you love the original.
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[my Blog about masked women in movies, TV, cosplay and comics]
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A what if "Wallis could like as Batwoman" picture that I found elsewhere online... I don't see see that happening this season, if ever, but here it is...
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Even I'm tired of this topic I just have to reply.
Most shows lose viewers during a season. Especially compared to the season premiere.
Also, these are the TV ratings. And this is the CW, which is basically a streaming service. So the TV ratings are like the numbers of fax machines sales ...outdated ... ;)

Unfortunately, it doesn't make it any less true. Most fans on fan sites across they web were very supportive of a recast of Ruby Rose as Rose wanted to leave. However, most if the same fans were opposed to replacing Kate Kane with another character. Many said they would not watch and they haven't. I have notice the absence of several loyal season 1 posters evens on this site. I am sticking with the show but I am a Kate Kane loyalist.
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Whatever. I’m entitled to feel however I want to about these disrespectful decisions the writers have made. At this point, I’ve honestly just been disappointed too many times to even care anymore.

The real Batwoman (Kate Kane) will live on in other forms of media in the future. And I will take comfort in that. But the show is pretty much dead to me now.

The less I know about it the happier I will be.


You keep claiming disrespect, so I have some questions for you:
Was it disrespectful to give the role of Batman to Dick Grayson?

What about giving the role of The Flash to Wally West and the role of Green Lantern to Kyle Rayner?

Or what about giving the role of Batgirl to Stephanie Brown and Cass Cain or the role of The Question to Renee Montoya?

If you can't or won't allege disrespect in all of these examples, you don't have a legitimate argument in alleging disrespect in regards to Ryan Wilder being given the role of Batwoman.
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Whatever. I’m entitled to feel however I want to about these disrespectful decisions the writers have made. At this point, I’ve honestly just been disappointed too many times to even care anymore.

The real Batwoman (Kate Kane) will live on in other forms of media in the future. And I will take comfort in that. But the show is pretty much dead to me now.

The less I know about it the happier I will be.
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I just hope that WB can finally get their act together some day and do a DCEU Batwoman movie with Kate in the lead role.

It would be the one silver lining to this whole disaster.


You should listen to your own advice.
Practically nothing from you during season 1 as Kate was still there.
Then you complained about the new character.
Now Kate Kane is back and you still complain even you don't know what will happen to her or how they portray her.
You don't watch the show (anymore), you don't like the show.....so why are you here?
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[my Blog about masked women in movies, TV, cosplay and comics]
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I just hope that WB can finally get their act together some day and do a DCEU Batwoman movie with Kate in the lead role.

It would be the one silver lining to this whole disaster.
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Glad that the title of this thread is wrong after all. :)
http://www.maskripper.org
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[my Blog about masked women in movies, TV, cosplay and comics]
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Sadly, It looks like many fans feel the same. While the season 2 premiere was on par with the ratings where season 1 ended, it has since lost about 1/3 of it viewers.


Even I'm tired of this topic I just have to reply.
Most shows lose viewers during a season. Especially compared to the season premiere.
Also, these are the TV ratings. And this is the CW, which is basically a streaming service. So the TV ratings are like the numbers of fax machines sales ...outdated ... ;)
Plus I think with that Wallis Day aspect, the numbers will go up.
http://www.maskripper.org
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[my Blog about masked women in movies, TV, cosplay and comics]
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*sigh* Ya know what? I’ve changed my mind. I’m still not watching. I’m happy for Wallis Day to get the role. But seeing these writers continue to insult Kate Kane’s character by denying her the Batwoman mantle, in favour of their precious OC, is just going to be too painful to witness.

They should have just recast her right from the start. But the character was clearly too “white and privileged” to be worthy of being Batwoman anymore. Because being woke today is so much more important to them than respecting the source material.

DC’s intellectual property has always been too good for these hacks.


Ethnicity had nothing to do with the decision to shift the focus of the series from Kate to Ryan.

We know this because Wallis was actually one of the people who auditioned for the role of Ryan before it ultimately went to Javica, as per Caroline Dries.

Wallis also came onto the producers' radar for the role of the new Kate because of the fan community's push for her to replace Ruby before it was revealed that the focus of the series was being shifted away from Kate and onto Ryan.
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@rogvortex58 " *sigh* Ya know what? I’ve changed my mind. I’m still not watching. I’m happy for Wallis Day to get the role. But seeing these writers continue to insult Kate Kane’s character by denying her the Batwoman mantle, in favour of their precious OC, is just going to be too painful to witness."


Sadly, It looks like many fans feel the same. While the season 2 premiere was on par with the ratings where season 1 ended, it has since lost about 1/3 of it viewers.
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Wallis will be awesome as Kate Kane. However, I am concerned about the body parts found... how much of Kate was floating around out there in the ocean and how much of her remains intact in the sewers of Gotham?

Wallis was my top pick of the names that were floating around to replace Ruby before the whole 180 with Ryan Wilder.

I think Wallis Day could go toe-to-toe with the fabulous Rachel Skarsten.

I am disappointed but not at all surprised that Dries purposely noted that the second half of the season will cement Ryan as Batwoman. I knew they could not or would not reverse course.

But to me and most core fans, Kate Kane is Batwoman. Ryan should have her own unique super hero identity and work with Kate and Team Bat or get a spinoff.
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*sigh* Ya know what? I’ve changed my mind. I’m still not watching. I’m happy for Wallis Day to get the role. But seeing these writers continue to insult Kate Kane’s character by denying her the Batwoman mantle, in favour of their precious OC imposter, is just going to be too painful to witness.

They should have just recast her right from the start. But the character was clearly too “white and privileged” to be worthy of being Batwoman anymore. Because being woke today is so much more important to them than respecting the source material.

DC’s intellectual property has always been too good for these hacks.
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Right. Because validating some random OC imposter is so much more important than respecting the real Batwoman and her legacy.

Give me a break. ?


Shifting the story from Kate to Ryan isn't disrespectful.

I dislike the execution, but the concept is sound.
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Right. Because validating some random OC imposter is so much more important than respecting the real Batwoman and her legacy.

Give me a break. ?
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