Thoughts on Season 2 without Kate

I'm sure that when the Kate storyline and the Ryan/everyone else storyline connect later in the season,Kate herself will officially anoint Ryan as Batwoman.I think that has to be what this is building to for the end of the season.

Kate will be discovered by our characters leading Ryan to doubt her continued role as Batwoman after truly establishing herself in the role in the mid part of this season.By the end of the season,Kate herself will pass the mantle to Ryan and probably depart Gotham maybe after making peace with her father and Alice and having closure with Luke,Mary and Sophie

Kate isn't a "supporting player in her own story" because the show isn't about her any longer. It's about Ryan.

However, for the sake of narrative continuity, I'd personally rather have Kate back in the series as a supporting character than not have her involved at all.

Also, I've realized that, for as much as I personally might be frustrated with the execution, switching the focus from Kate to Ryan is no different than, hypothetically, telling the story of The Killing Joke, Stephanie Brown's ascension as the new Batgirl, and Barbara's transformation into Oracle within the pages of an ongoing Batgirl comic series.

In other words, the show is doing exactly what some of us thought it should've done with regards to shifting the focus of the story from Kate to Ryan; it's just doing it in a more convoluted fashion than it needed to.

I agree Kate Kane is Batwoman and not a supporting player in her own story.

I am psyched that Wallis Day was cast as Kate and disappointed that Dries has said it will further cement Ryan as Batwoman. I knew they would not bring Kate back as Batwoman over the who diversity recast. Ryan should have be brought in as a different character.

As a “supporting player”!? Do you have any idea how insulting that sounds? There would be no Batwoman series without Kate Kane! It’s her story.

Supporting player my ass! This was her journey to begin with. I’m only interested in watching for her. Happy to just fast forward all the OC’s scenes.

Only if she’s written well. And I don’t trust these writers to do anything except use her to constantly kiss the OC’s ass and validate her even more.

Just because the producers made an unnecessary decision, it doesn't mean that they won't treat the Kate Kane character respectfully as a supporting player.

Only if she’s written well. And I don’t trust these writers to do anything except use her to constantly kiss the OC’s ass and validate her even more.

A recasting should have been their Season 2 narrative direction from the beginning.

Wallis is a great actor, though, and should make a great Kate.

So...that just happened. Just found out on Wallis Day’s Instagram. She confirmed it.

I guess they won’t be abandoning Kate’s story entirely. I’m still not naive enough to think the writers will let her be Batwoman again.

This doesn’t change anything. I’m still not happy with their decision to just give the mantle over to a random OC created just to take her place.

I had thought Christina Wolfe was upped to regular. It sucks that on top of losing Kate Kane, Julia has been MIA.

I thought that too (Julia a regular).
I would guess she is on some secret mission that will be very important to the story.
But she is been missing for 5 episodes now. And in at least the last 3 no one even mentioned here.
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In the end, I think both will return

I had thought Christina Wolfe was upped to regular. It sucks that on top of losing Kate Kane, Julia has been MIA.

@Siggi

..... Speaking of, did we get a confirmation of the episode order for season 2 on Batwoman? You said 18, but I can't find a source. If you have a source, I'd greatly appreciate it! The only source I've found is a Deadline article about Supergirl, saying it's 20 episode final season will be longer than the other scripted shows.

......

I have a very official source on the show, won't say more....
It's not official yet. Until mid-December, they had the first 9 episodes filmed. So I guess they are filming now for another 3 months for the other 9 episodes. Will be interesting to know when season 3 is coming if they only make a short filming break to get to the normal routine back with a season start in October or so.
And yeah, the comparison with other CW superhero shows will be interesting, yeah, it should stay above LoT and Black Lightning for example.
And I bet for a solid growth on the ratings of episode 3 with football "out of the way". Would be good if the 18-49 demo would reach 0.2 again and total viewership would go up to 0.75 or so. Last season we got the renewal notice between the crisis crossover episodes.

@Siggi

Everything you said is true. That's why I said I'm waiting for the other DC shows to premiere, so comparisons can be made. While we can't use live ratings to determine a show's overall success, we can use them to get a general idea of how a show is performing compared to it's other CW counterparts.

For example, if Batwoman's numbers are hovering around the same place as Black Lightning's, a show that's already ending, then that's probably not a good sign.

I won't compare it to Supergirl, this season, because Batwoman will likely be close to it's conclusion by the time Supergirl even starts. Speaking of, did we get a confirmation of the episode order for season 2 on Batwoman? You said 18, but I can't find a source. If you have a source, I'd greatly appreciate it! The only source I've found is a Deadline article about Supergirl, saying it's 20 episode final season will be longer than the other scripted shows.

However, I am going to say that, with how HARD they've been promoting Batwoman season 2, it's still a red flag that it's first 2 episodes are struggling to match even the lower ratings for season 1.

As for the facebook groups you mentioned...of course they favor the show. A group that is dedicated to a show is never going to be an accurate sample group. I belong to multiple Supergirl groups. Those groups are constantly singing the show's praises, and rarely criticizing it. And while I support that show, I know it's far, FAR from perfect, especially these last couple years.

I know you're the eternal optimist regarding this show. You have been the most sure about it of anyone I've seen on this board, even since the recasting plan was announced last Spring. And as I said in my previous post, this show is not guaranteed for renewal or cancellation. We just don't know. But I DO think it's safe to say that, with this rebooted season 2 with a brand new lead, the show is definitely under a microscope, and those who make decisions are going to be watching closely at how it's performing.

I've said this before, but I truly hope you're theory is right, and that Kate returns (with a new actress) and the possible season 3 is a co-led show with both characters. I truly believe that is the best route for this show. That would satisfy me, and others who desire Kate Kane to be Batwoman, without alienating any of the new viewers. I'm just not sure that's the route that the showrunners are heading with this. If they were going to recast Kate, why go through this disappearance arc, instead of just recasting last Summer? It does them no favors.

@rogvortex:
Ok, now I'm getting slightly annoyed. Where have you been throughout season 1? One or two posts in the whole season. And now you are posting very often how you dislike things and take every chance at attacking the show. This is a fan-site for the TV show.... and by the way: Have you even seen the first two episodes? But I guess that wouldn't do much good as you seemingly dislike Ryan just for the fact that she isn't Kate.
And comparing the ratings without any context to season 1...like many trolls do (doesn't say you are a troll)....doesn't help.
First of all, what I read in some places: They compared the (18-49) ratings with the first episode from this season with the ratings from the first episode of the entire show.
That makes NO sense at all! Of course, the very first episode has a whole lot of curious watchers who wanna see it. Also, the final ratings for the 18-49 demo went up 50% from 0,1 to 0,15 (final results are only in 2 days after an episode). Of course, the trolls ignore that. As much as the trolls compared every single rating in season 1 with the very first episode and drolled over how "low" it dropped from episode 1. Complete nonsense as well. Actually many think that the very first episode was the weakest....
If you then compare these results to last season's average or the last episodes of s1...then the drop is much lower.
The overall viewership was actually pretty much the SAME as in the last 7 episodes of season 1.
AND, very importantly: There were the NFL playoffs on the Sundays of the first two episodes. 99% of the folks who are interested in both will watch NFL live and record Batwoman or stream it the next day.
The TV ratings go down from year to year.
More and more people are streaming and especially in the 18-49 demo, many young folks stream practically everything, they don't watch it on (live) TV.
Look at Arrows or Flash ratings, or practically every TV show...the TV ratings are going down from year to year. Which doesn't mean all these shows are getting worse or less audience in total (as the numbers exclude streaming numbers, dvd sales).
Also, with all the streaming services and their own shows...again...there are more and more TV shows every year. People can watch only a certain amount...so the average numbers go down even more.
Also, the CW cares much less about these TV ratings than other stations. There are heavily relying on their own streaming service. On social media, they are advertising it every chance they get in their Batwoman posts. They don't promote their own TV airing much in comparison....that says quite a lot!
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@kdogg87:
So far, with all I said above, we can't know at all how the people are thinking about Ryan as the new Batwoman, as there are SO many factors. The reception in the 2 big Batwoman Facebook groups of Ryan is very well, even I guess some hardcore Kate Kane fanatics may have left already.
What do you mean by "shorter" season? Ok, well 18 episodes is a little less than usual (22 or so) but still quite a lot in comparison to most shows.
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The 18-49 demo already increased from episode 1 to 2 which is pretty great as normally a season premiere episode should attract more viewers...
And with no NFL this weekend, I bet the TV ratings are improving even more.
But again, that's ONLY the live TV ratings.

If the ratings for S2 prove anything, it’s that replacing Kate Kane with some random OC, who has no connection to the DC universe or the show’s cast, was a mistake.

Maybe they can fix it midway through the season, recast the role, bring Kate back and give the Batwoman mantle back to her.

It would be the smart thing to do before the show gets cancelled.

I'm was waiting for the other DC shows to premiere so I could get a handle on how it's ranking among THOSE shows. But yes. The premiere had the weakest ratings in the show's history, and episode 2 had the third weakest.

For comparison, the ratings for the first two episodes of Batwoman season 2 are below the last year's average numbers for both Black Lightning and Supergirl...two shows that are now ending.

Granted, the CW has some really funky factors for what determines if a show is cancelled or renewed, so the show's fate is far from sealed. As we know, live viewership isn't a huge factor for their decisions. But it DOES give us a feeling for how a show's viewership ranks among other CW shows.

I do feel it's fair to say, at this point, that ditching Kate for an O.C. alienated a fair amount of viewers who supported the show, last year. And it seems the viewers they aimed to gain by going this new direction did not outweigh those losses.

And due to the shorter season, they don't have as much time to course-correct as they maybe normally would. At the same time, though, the show could be saved simply by the fact that they need shows for the Fall 2021 line up, for which they already need to start making decisions soon.

I'm genuinely intrigued by the questions regarding the fate of this show. It could honestly go either way.

If the ratings for S2 prove anything, it’s that replacing Kate Kane with some random OC, who has no connection to the DC universe or the show’s cast, was a mistake.

Maybe they can fix it midway through the season, recast the role, bring Kate back and give the Batwoman mantle back to her.

It would be the smart thing to do before the show gets cancelled.

I'm still waiting for one or two more episodes to air before I binge the first few all at once.

That said, I feel like all of this "Kate is alive" teasing (which Caroline Dries has been doing since before the recast) is a bad move, unless they intend to bring her back.

But as I've mentioned before, bringing her back at some point, even with a recast, is also a dangerous path, because you pull focus from Ryan, and all the promotion of her being a Batwoman of color that they've been doing leading up to and throughout this season.

I'm curious to see how they are gonna resolve this Kate mystery. How they resolve this, and move forward afterward, will really determine the direction of the show, post-season 2. That's what I WANT, but I doubt it's what they will do.

In my mind, the best path is to bring back a recasted Kate, at season's end, and make her and Ryan a team of Batwomen for the future. I was gonna say bring Kate back as Batwoman and give Ryan another identity after this season...but even that would be viewed as a "demotion" and wouldn't play well.

If they bring Kate's character back at the end of the season, after the mystery is solved, only to write her off, again, after a season of build up, I feel like that would be really disappointing.

That said, I am genuinely intrigued at how they are going to try to resolve this plot thread.

Still not happy they erased Kate.

........

They didn't erase her as she is not dead.

Still not happy they erased Kate. Even more angry that Dries called her “a privileged white girl” when we know she is so much more than that.

Definitely not watching now. Dries crossed a line when she said that. After everything Kate has meant to her fans for years. The fact that this show wouldn’t even exist without her. The is how the showrunner chooses to respect the character and her legacy?

Kate Kane deserved so much better than this. And so did her fans.

I’m just done.

Here is a little info on an upcoming episode you may find of interest:

https://tvline.com/2021/01/20/batwoman-season-2-javicia-leslie-black-lives-matter

Caroline Dries post episode interview with TV Line.Spoilers for the now aired premiere.

https://tvline.com/2021/01/17/batwoman-recap-season-2-premiere-javicia-leslie-kate-ryan/